HAWAI'I ISLAND BURIAL COUNCIL
DATE: THURSDAY SEPTEMBER 15, 2005
TIME: 9:00 AM (MEETING- SITE VISIT)
PLACE: WEST HAWAII BUSINESS PARK
QUEEEN KA'AHUMAN HIGHWAY
KAILUA-KONA HAWAI'I 96740
TIME: 1:00 PM (MEETING-BUSINESS)
PLACE: NATURAL ENERGY LAB OF HAWAII AUTHORITY
73-4660 QUEEN KA'AHUMANU HIGHWAY
KAILUA-KONA, HI 96740
Ronald Dela Cruz, Kohala
Leningrad Elarionoff, Kohala
Pele Hanoa, Ka'u
Ku Kahakalau, Hamakua
Kaleo Kuali'i, Kona
Cynthia Nazara, Kona
Dutchie Saffrey, Puna
Keola Lindsey, History & Culture Branch, SHPD
Maryanne Maigret, Hawai'i Island Assistant Archaeologist
Vince Kanemoto, Deputy Attorney General
Marian P. Channels
Kihei S. (indecipherable)
E. Koanui Bruce
I. 9:00a-12:00p HAWAI'I ISLAND BURIAL COUNCIL SITE VISIT TO WEST HAWAI'I BUSINESS PARK DEVELOPMENT
III. 1:00 PM RECONVENING OF HAWAI'I ISLAND BURIAL COUNCIL MEETING AT THE NATURAL ENERGY LABORATORY OF HAWAI'I AUTHORITY
IV. OPENING REMARKS
HIBC Chair Charlie Young (Young) calls the meeting to order at 1:14p.
Pele Hanoa (Hanoa) offers a pule.
Introduction of HIBC Members, State Historic Preservation Division Staff and the Deputy Attorney General
Young says the HIBC was on a site visit this morning, and thanks Mr. Jim Greenwell and his crew for taking the HIBC out there.
Young says at the last HIBC meeting, the HIBC determined certain policies for these meetings- one thing is the sign in sheet for testimony. As the HIBC Chair, Young has been tasked with implementing time limits for testimony as Young sees fit. It will really depend on how long these meetings go. The purpose of these policies is to ensure that everyone has the opportunity to speak; not to limit people. Young guarantees that if you feel you have more to say after the first round of testimony, you will be given the opportunity to come back again. We will take people in the order they sign up.
V. APPROVAL OF AUGUST 18, 2005 HIBC MEETING MINUTES
A motion is made to approve the August 18, 2005 HIBC meeting minutes as submitted
Vote: All in Favor
A. BURIAL TREATMENT PLAN FOR AN AREA IN THE AHUPUA'A OF HONOKOHAU I (NUI) AND II (IKI), KONA DISTIRCT, ISLAND OF HAWAI'I
[TMK (3) 7-4-08:13, (3) 7-4-08:30 AND (3) 7-4-08:74]
Information/Determination/Recommendation: Presentation by West Hawai'i Business Park, LLC. Council determination to preserve in place or relocate previously identified burials. Council recommendations to the Department on the short and long term preservation measures detailed in the Burial Treatment Plan. Recognition of cultural and/or lineal descendants.
Jim Greenwell (Greenwell), David Tuggle (Tuggle), Isaac Harp (Harp) and Maria Orr (Orr) give an overview.
Greenwell says he is the President of West Hawai'i Business Park, LLC which is a subsidiary of Lanihau Properties. Tuggle, Harp and Orr have worked very closely with him to develop the burial treatment plan that is before the Council today.
Greenwell has also requested that Bruce McClure, the Chief Engineer with the County of Hawai'i be here today. Greenwell thanks McClure for coming. The civil engineer for the project, Barry Muronaka is also here today. McClure and Muronaka are here to answer any questions regarding the Kamanu Street connection.
Greenwell thanks the descendants who Greenwell Tuggle and Orr have gotten to know- Greenwell feels he has really learned a lot from the descendants; it has been a good process that Greenwell feels everyone has benefited from.
Greenwell's great-grandfather, Henry Nicholas Greenwell acquired title to this land in the 1880's and became the caretaker. Greenwell's grandfather, Frank succeeded him. In the 1960's a quarry license agreement allowed JN Tanaka to do some surface quarrying on the property under a conservation district use permit.
The family was slow to move, as you look mauka form the National Park, the one green strip of land in Honokohau is this property. In the 1990's the family realized it was time to do something- the County did their Kailua to Keahole regional plan; infrastructure was being planned and growth was inevitable. The first thing they (Greenwell) did was the archaeological inventory survey of almost 900 acres from Queen Ka'ahumanu Highway almost to Palani Road. It took almost 9 years to get the inventory survey approved.
The first consultant Greenwell retained was Kepa Maly. Maly helped with the cultural history of the land and helped Greenwell's generation reconnect to families and people who Greenwell's parents and grandparent knew. These people formed the initial list of contacts which started in 2000; that is when Greenwell first met Harp. Since then, Greenwell retained Tuggle's firm, IARII to do some of the mitigation planning. Greenwell felt it would be good to change archaeologists to have a new set of eyes look over the work. The first thing Greenwell asked for was a review and validation of the previous archaeological work- Greenwell wanted comfort with that. The next step was addressing the specifics of mitigation planning.
Greenwell says they did go through a full environmental impact statement because the property is in the conservation district and the zoning of the land had to be changed to urban by the Land Use Commission. The County zoning process was completed last year.
There were a series of meetings with the descendants they were able to identify. There were three or four meetings as a group and much more discussions individually. The process may not have been perfect, but Greenwell feels they have tried to find balance in what they are trying to do. Balancing not only the concerns that are coming form the descendants, but in this case Greenwell has to build a road, so he has had to try and consider what kinds of things the County is looking for. Even within the cultural issues, there has been some give and take that Greenwell had the opportunity to help make happen in a way he felt he could.
Greenwell does feel very good about the plan that is before the HIBC for consideration. It has been a good process.
Tuggle says there are five burial caves within the project area Greenwell is speaking of. Each cave has between 1 to approximately 10 individuals. The caves vary in topography depending on their location in the project area. These caves were identified in an archaeological inventory survey that was conducted about 10 years ago. Tuggle came into this 3 or 4 years ago to look at the overall archaeology on the landscape, including the burial sites and development of the burial treatment plan.
One thing that was requested very early on by community groups- 'ohana and descendants was to verify the quality of the previous inventory work- in other words to remap the caves and make sure they were where they were supposed to be under the ground, and make sure all the burials had been identified and located properly. Tuggle did not do this work himself, but his field crew under the direction of Mike Carson did that work. Isaaac Harp was also involved with the remapping.
The remapping only involved four of the five caves. As discussed at the site visit, one of the caves involves a constructed entrance which is fairly fragile and poses a safety concern. It was decided that remapping of this cave was not appropriate at this time.
Based on the remapping and discussions with 'ohana, kupuna and descendants they have proposed several aspects of burial treatment. The first and most obvious one is a proposal to preserve all burials in place. Each one of the burial sites is a cave, and thus, the difficulties with dealing with caves arise. They have proposed to identify a specific preservation area which is defined by the entrance to the cave, the access to the burial chamber, and the burial chamber itself and proposes a boundary for that area.
That boundary is identified in the maps in the plan as "the burial preservation buffer zone". The surface of that area is to be left undisturbed and defined by some sort of boundary marker; the plan proposes a stone wall. Beyond this boundary are additional buffers and constraints; a five foot landscaped area, and a 30 foot building set back, and a temporary construction buffer.
There are some exceptions. Two exceptions were discussed at the site visit. The two caves identified as 18116 and 18117 are close to each other. Greenwell has suggested enlarging the preservation area around these caves into a cultural preservation area which would be close to four acres.
Another exception is the proposal to cross one cave with a County connector road (Kamanu Street).
There is also site 18134, which we saw on the site visit this morning. It is a very large cave with two passages and at least 10 individuals buried within. It appears there was a ki'i removed from this cave, and we are working to have that returned. The cave has a massive constructed entrance.
There are some additional possibilities on how to protect this cave that are not proposed in the plan before the HIBC. They have been waiting to hear back from the 'ohana, kupuna, descendants and HIBC on guidance on how to deal with this special place. They are looking at those possibilities.
Once it is determined of where these boundaries should be, there is a process they are proposing on how to physically mark in the field and protected when development of this land begins so there is no question of protection for preservation area. The preservation areas are indicated in the plan and there are measures to make sure those preservation actions are enforced. One of which is having Isaac Harp as the cultural monitor. He or other monitors will make sure that the agreed upon preserved areas are protected by any potential physical damage, bulldozing etc.
Isaac Harp (Harp) says he considers himself a lineal descendant of the area although the State does not. About a month ago, he signed an agreement to be the cultural monitor. He has been meeting with Greenwell and the other descendants since 2000. It has been a long process, and there have been many site visits. Descendants keep being added to the list which Harp appreciates being involved with.
The descendants who have been involved in discussions so far support what is proposed here. There have been some discussions recently on what is going to happen to the cave entrances- some proposals have been permanently sealing them or putting bars over the entrance; those discussions are continuing.
As far as the Kamanu Street connection, the descendants support the idea with the exception of one who has some questions on the concrete reinforcement. Harp understands that the proposed alternatives have been rejected by the County, and if the road has to cross the cave, there needs to be some kind of concrete reinforcement to protect the cave from collapse. Harp hopes the County will not reject the proposal to reinforce the cave, and instead collapse it to reduce their potential for liability.
Young asks Harp the proposed crossing on page 23 of the plan is something the County is proposing as acceptable for meeting County requirements.
Harp says there are a couple of alternatives on page 26 of the plan. The alternative routes are green and purple. It is Harps understanding the County has rejected those alternatives. That is why the cave needs to be reinforced to avoid collapsing the cave.
Ku Kahakalau (Kahakalau) says when we have a cave we looked at the entire feature as the burial feature. In every single case here the pictures and drawings limit the burial feature to a certain area and extensive areas that are still part of the cave complex are excluded. Kahakalau does not know if this is arbitrary or if it is so many feet away. Kahakalau cannot see the schematics of it.
Site 18088 is a huge lava tube, and maybe a fourth of it is designated as the burial chamber and also site 18134. Kahakalau has never seen this before; the HIBC has always looked at the whole cave as being the site.
Tuggle says the criteria used were identifying an explicit area of access, the entrance to the cave, the burial location and access to the burial within the cave; the location of the remains in a specific chamber. That area is proposed to be entirely protected on the surface with additional areas of constraints and preservation.
For Site 18134 the boundary that was drawn there is based on existing information- the cave was not remapped. There were some constrictions that were impassible, but the red line on the map shows the limits of cultural material within the cave. The entire cave has been placed within a preservation boundary. Figure G-3 in the plan shows that proposal.
Kahakalau says she is also concerned about Site 18116; Figure D-2.
Tuggle says this cave is going to be in a much larger preservation area. This entire cave along with all of Site 18116 will be preserved; the only question is Kamanu Street. The cave will be preserved, but the proposal is to have the road cross over it on the surface.
Once the boundaries for Sites 18116 and 18117 are defined and in addition to Site 18134 being preserved in it's entirety you will see that the effective area of preservation is beyond the original defined boundary.
Leningrad Elarionoff (Elarionoff) says this is similar to the case in Puna that was presented at the August HIBC where there is a tube that crossed several properties. Elarionoff also knows of a burial cave in Wai'ohinu that extends for three miles the burials are only in one part of the cave. If we start getting into a situation where the whole tube has to be preserved, that is a lot of area- it is a precedent. We need to be careful and look where the burials and what the intention was.
Kahakalau says we also have to be spiritual. If you look at a church, the entire church is looked at as a sacred place- it is an analogy for the western framework or any other religion. You have areas that would be considered more sacred; it is where the mana is concentrated. There are areas in the church where you can't go. You could be in the front area of a church, but you still have to act like you are in a church.
Previous Councils up to now have treated the whole cave as the site.
Pele Hanoa (Hanoa) says the whole area needs to be preserved; no tearing off the front end or back end.
Young says we are trying to overlay someone else's map over the intention of our ancestors. There was no dispute over ownership or TMK's when they did the burials. The Council has been very consistent in viewing the entire cave is the burial. That has held throughout many decisions. There have been cases where the ana go from property to property. There is a legal constraint where the adjacent landowner needs to adhere to the plan. We had a case like that on Ali'i Drive. The Council encouraged the developers to work it out, and they did. In this case, we are on one property. This is something the Council has made decisions on before, and it set a good precedent.
Young feels this is a good plan, with the exception of the road, these are lines on paper though and are not hard and fast in the ground yet, but that is what we are trying to accomplish, and that is where we are trying to get to.
Greenwell says they know this was a subject we were going to talk about a lot. It is probably the thing they talked with the descendants most about. Greenwell has been guided significantly by what those who have been a part of those discussions have been comfortable with. The most mauka cave 18134 has some issues with joint ownership and the special nature of that site.
For the other sites down below, the lines represent the radiating levels of protection- we really got into during discussions with the descendants and were heavily guided by that input. They were down on the ground drawing on the maps to see what we could do. They were trying to respect that concept. They looked at each of these sites as being somewhat unique for 18116 and 18117 with the roads; they realized they can take better care of them with the four acre preservation area.
They tried to stay to a protocol- Greenwell knows they can do better on 18134 in terms of being more specific because of the special nature of the site.
Kahakalau says she just had a question. It was not clear, sometimes "burial chamber" is used and sometimes "burial chambers" is used; so her question was who is defining those, and needed clarification.
In general the buffer width going outwards is a really positive thing. The HIBC is always concerned about heavy machinery coming in, so the construction buffers are good too. Kahakalau likes the detail on page 12 of the plan which specifies how close the heavy machinery can get, and she hopes that the descendants or other HIBC members with experience in this can share if they think those buffers are enough.
In terms of the 4 acre cultural preservation area, Kahakalau is hearing that the plans are to do nothing there; leave it as it is. Just having nothing there makes it cultural? Kahakalau is not sure where all that is going.
Kahakalau feels that to do something with the area, there has to be something there if it is going to perpetuate the culture. There needs to be funding available to perpetuate those things. Keep that in mind as discussions continue with the descendants. Just giving someone some land and telling people do something with the culture that land without having the means in general is hard. This is a recommendation to the landowner: we appreciate giving and designating land for cultural purposes, but keep in mind that if revenue is being generated from this land, perhaps a percentage can go to the people and the cultural preserve to really makes this a place where people can do something because there is the funding to do something with it.
Kahakalau says this is a suggestion she wanted to throw out there, and really thanks Greenwell for thinking to put aside the land, but for many unless there is money to do something with that land, not a lot of cultural things can happen there.
Pele Hanoa says maybe because Greenwell is the developer, maybe they can do something with it, and build a cultural center in that area.
Greenwell says they are deferring a lot of this to the descendants, but feels the tone of discussions up to this point was that there was a value to leaving areas more undisturbed. Offering a place where even native plants could be preserved and seen in their natural context years from now next to perhaps a trail corridor that told part of the story of how people who lived in this land moved through the area, and what they saw and what it was like. It is going to get to a point where it will be hard for you can see where a pahoehoe and 'a'a flow come together and you can still see and feel that. It will be rare.
Maybe things haven't been taken as far as they could be but they saw value at this juncture to say they won't do anything until the descendants are comfortable with it.
Isaac Harp (Harp) says the descendant group has not gotten into discussions on any treatment of the cultural preservation area. Their primary focus has been protecting the burials. There has been talk of turning this cultural preserve area over to a descendant land trust. The descendants who have been involved in the discussions feel the area should be left natural, and remove the alien plants and perhaps bring in some of the native dry land plants that don't need much water. These discussions have not gone into much detail. The focus for now has been getting as much protection as possible for the burials.
Maria Orr (Orr) thinks the idea was to establish the 4 acres as a protected area. No building what so ever will take place in there.
Dutchie Saffrey (Saffrey) asks who will be removing the alien plants from the cultural preserve.
Harp says the descendants will decide that, but discussions have not reached that point. For now they are happy with having the land set aside, and not have anything happen in the area. Eventually, the discussions will focus on what is best for the area, and for future generations.
Leningrad Elarionoff (Elarionoff) says he likes the idea of the preservation plan. After being on the site visit, and seeing the caves. Just by the entrances it is obvious that different classes of people are buried there. If the brush is removed, these areas will be even more exposed. Elarionoff likes the idea of careful planning when it comes to preservation; see what is there, and preserve it as is.
Harp says from his site visits to the area, he can see three classes of people buried there: maka'ainana, and maybe some konohiki. Of course the big cave is probably an ali'i; very significant amount of work went into that site.
As much as possible, Harp would like to preserve the area in its natural state
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there are a lot of features around that area that you can't see because of the brush.
Tuggle says all of the features Harp is speaking of are protected within the preservation buffers for that particular cave.
Jacqui Hoover (Hoover) asks Maryanne Maigret if there is a difference between cultural preservation areas and historical preservation areas- she has seen both terms used.
Maryanne Maigret (Maigret) says both terms refer to protected areas. The interpretation of a given area depends on what is unique about it. That is what she looks for when plans come in; it is a case by case kind of thing.
Hoover asks Harp if there are no intentions to put up interpretive signage? Or is the plan to just preserve what is there historically in a correct way?
Saffrey asks if the buffers similar to Site 18088 that are proposed for site 18134 acceptable to the descendants.
Harp says pretty much.
Safrrey asks if the descendants are all in agreement with that.
Harp says in the beginning, there was a preference on protecting the entire cave structure. Then the discussions went into how far do we go if the caves extend for hundreds of feet or miles? The descendants who were involved in these discussions agreed that the protection should be for the burial chamber itself. There is basically agreement from the descendants for what is in the proposal the one exception is on how the entrances will be treated; there has not been agreement on that.
Tuggle says following the discussions at the site visit and here at the meeting, they will go back to meeting with the 'ohana and descendants on how to treat that particular cave (18134).
Young says it may be appropriate at this point to have Bruce McClure, Hawai'i County's Chief Engineer come forward because he may have some information on the proposed alignments of the Kamanu Street connection.
Greenwell suggests that Barry Muronaka come forward. He did the original design.
Bruce McClure (McClure) introduces himself to the HIBC. He is the Director of Hawai'i County's Department of Public Works.
Barry Muronaka (Muronaka) introduces himself to the HIBC. He is with Akinaka and Associates, who are the consulting civil engineers.
The intent is to connect Kamanu Street from both ends in the straightest path possible while holding as close as possible to the existing grade to avoid cutting into the ground or building up. This saves money and there is less disturbance of the ground.
The original proposal did not take into account having to avoid the cave that is there. Once that issue came out, two alternatives were identified and shown in purple and green in the plan. These alternatives were developed to try and see if the cave could be avoided.
The green alignment resulted in what is called an "s curve". This is undesirable for National Highway standards; it is just not safe. National standards say you can't have what is called an intermediate tangent between two curves going in opposite direction. You make a left and then a right. They want you to go straight for awhile and then make the turn. With the green alignment this is impossible to do.
The purple alignment resulted in a change in direction by having to stop. Muronaka thinks the intent of Kamanu Street was to try and keep people moving. In having to stop, you create more traffic.
McClure says there has been a failure to provide Kona and other areas with a road system that works well. The failure has been to provide "connectivity." If you have a house there is a front and back door, but in Kona they have created cul-de-sacs that all come off of main roads. A lot of traffic on Queen Ka'ahumanu Highway is because the only other road is the Mamalahoa Highway up top.
The first connector the County did was in the Ka'iminani- Kona Wonderview subdivision. Normally the County would wait for the private sector to build the road, but to get this connectivity going the County is condemning the land and will build the road at the County's expense. One is in now and they are working on three others.
It does not have to be a grid; it just has to be connected. There is a need for more roads parallel to Ka'ahumanu, and more mauka-makai roads. Kamanu Street will not be a 55 mph road to replace Ka'ahumanu- it is a road that can be used for travel within the area between the high school and the industrial area. The County is trying to get a series of roads in place.
The purple alternative is not desirable because it requires stopping and turning and thus, backs up traffic. The goal is to keep traffic flowing.
The green alternative results in the road being 10 mph because of the physics involved. They are not trying to build freeways or super fast roads, but the "s curve" and intermediate tangents slow things down.
The original alignment is the most desirable.
Muronaka says with the green alternative, it will require more excavation work which potentially means more vibrations, although it is tough to say if those vibrations will affect the cave.
Jacqui Hoover (Hoover) says that is what her concern is that this additional work could cause more damage than crossing over the cave as originally proposed.
Young asks if there are ways to eliminate this "s-curve"; perhaps by moving the intersection between Kamanu Street and Kanalani?
Muronaka says if the green alternative is stretched out, the result would be the intersection between Kanalani and Kamanu being skewed, and that is also objectionable at the County and State levels because a drivers line of sight is affected; it can be studied. The main intersection is at Honokohau Street; that is an existing road.
Kahakalau asks if moving the alignment makai has been looked at.
Muronaka says it would be harder to come out of Honokohau Street and make that sweeping curve down and then come around; the intersection would become difficult.
Kaleo Kuali'i (Kuali'i) asks if the intersection in Honokohau actually exists already.
Muronaka says it does.
Roy Helbush (Helbush) asks what the speed limit will be.
Muronaka says probably 25 mph.
What you see is a 60 foot easement, which provided for two lanes; one in each direction.
Ron Dela Cruz (Dela Cruz) asks if the 60 foot easement is a County standard.
Muronaka says it is.
Young says he has heard some discussion of special reinforcement along this alignment.
Muronaka says they did look into what is called an "alternative pavement section." Basically the pavement is reinforced with concrete. Basically it is a bridge that is on the ground; it does not go above. When you are driving you would not even notice it. The asphalt and concrete go right over it. The bridge option would be used where the proposal is to cross the cave.
One option was to focus travel towards the center of the street, but in discussions with the County, it created problems. The concept for this bridge option has been looked at extensively and can be done.
Saffrey asks what type of vehicles will be using the road.
McClure says it will be a normal public road and will have a wide variety of vehicle. The road is in an industrial area so there may be big trucks.
Muronaka says the bridge will be designed to handle those heavy loads.
Elarionoff asks what will prevent the cave from collapsing after the bridge is put in.
Muronaka says the bridge is supported from the sides.
McClure says the support for the bridge will be way out on the sides not near the cave. It is McClure's understanding that the roof of the cave is about 20 feet thick.
Kuali'i asks if any excavations will be done above the cave.
Muronaka they will have to excavate a little to build this concrete section. The force of something being on the bridge is distributed sideways not straight down.
Cynthia Nazara asks what the lifespan of a bridge like this is. Have they built anything like this anywhere else?
Muronaka says he has never designed a bridge like this himself. They will have a structural engineer come in and design the bridge and determine the lifespan.
McClure says if the concrete is good, it will last as long as the Roman aqueducts- concrete doesn't of itself deteriorate. It has steel reinforcement inside and as long as there is enough cover and the steel stays dry, it will last forever.
Nazara asks if they can determine the lifespan.
McClure says it will give 50 or a 100 years, but he can see it lasting a lot longer than that. They want to give the HIBC the confidence that it will last a long time. When they build bridges they give them economic life; the bridges become obsolete not because they are structurally weak, they are just too narrow.
Young asks where drainage from these streets will go.
Muronaka says there will be a drywell system. To avoid impacting the caves, water can be piped away from the cave areas to drywells. Once in the drywell system the water goes its natural way. They have done it in the past where the water goes into a catch basin and then is piped away to a second pipe basin which is a drywell system.
Young would like to see the alternative routes explored; it may be a combination of both of the identified alternatives.
Kuali'i says with the relatively low speed limit of 25 mph, perhaps some of the concerns regarding the s-curve and stop can be looked at. Then again, the way people drive today 25 mph sometimes means 52 mph.
Hoover asks if the statutory 45 day clock for the HIBC to make a decision has started.
Young says it has, but they will probably defer today.
Hoover says especially since the HIBC is asking for alternative design options. Hoover asks Muronaka to try and find examples of similar bridges that have been designed and constructed in the past.
Young would like to know how the descendants feel about the bridge concept.
Arthur Mahi (Mahi) says there needs to be buffers around all the caves. Mahi is concerned about the road going over the cave- we don't know how strong it is- the road might cave in. If the road needs to go around that area, so be it. The 'iwi in this place are his 'ohana. The 'iwi need to be left alone; preserved in place. Any artifacts that have been taken need to be returned. The mana does not belong to us. Someone needs to be watching to make sure the 'iwi aren't hurt by the machines.
Out kupuna took care of this land, and now that responsibility is with us, we need to take care of this land. Our children and grandchildren are going to take care after us, so we need to show them what is pono.
Mahi is glad to hear about the proposed cultural center- it is a good idea. Don't just talk about, we have to do it. We can't fight each other, we need to be pono. They bare not hear to make hakaka.
Young asks Mahi if he has seen a copy of the Burial Treatment Plan.
Mahi says he has, but doesn't like going over the cave. The road should be re-routed. The plan is just on paper.
Hoover asks Mahi if he has signed up to be recognized as a descendant.
Mahi says he does not like that term descendant. 'Ohana is better.
Young says it looks like Mahi was contacted very early on in the process; he has been in on the discussions.
Keolalani Hanoa says the last area we visited this morning at the site visit is extraordinary. That is not just a burial area; it is a place of ceremony. It is a place of ali'i. That kind of stonework is not for the common people.
There has been massive ground disturbing activities on the property related to quarry activity. There needs to be a buffer around all the caves- there have been problems in the past with caves collapsing. The buffer needs to be at least 100 feet; especially around the site up on top site 18134.
Hanoa likes the idea of the cultural preservation area being expanded. Hanoa is an educator, and preserve means to take care in perpetuity for the education of our children. If we are going to make it a preserve, our children should be able to utilize it. There is no use in restoring it, reforesting it, if our kamali'i are not going to use it. Hanoa suggests because of Honokohau's rich history, that this preserve not just be an open area, but a place our children can participate in and take the kuleana.
Hanoa has a problem with the road- she is not comfortable with the distance of the road from our 'iwi kupuna in the cave. The cave in its entirety, the whole cave, should have an entirety. The 'ana has a spiritual context to it. You don't just go in and out. If you are a cultural practitioner, you understand that the entire 'ana encompasses the spirit, the 'uhane of those kupuna; the whole thing becomes sacred. Hanoa would like to see more discussions with the descendants. Hanoa is not sure that a bridge over a lava tube is the best way to protect the 'iwi. The road needs to be moved further away.
It starts with the poor planning and not aligning roads to address the impact of people is always at the cost of Native Hawaiians and out 'iwi kupuna- that is really getting old. Hanoa is tired of the Hawaiians being the ones who have to sacrifice.
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Alfred Spinney (Spinney) wants to know the intent of the charter for the Hawai'i Island Burial Council. Is there a purpose? Spinney feels that these meetings a centered around development. Development seems to take precedent.
Saffrey says she knows where Spinney is coming from, and feels him, but development is happening. Her purpose of being on the HIBC is to protect the 'iwi.
Spinney says the HIBC makes decisions that affect the people who live on the 'aina.
Young says he thinks the HIBC will determine to preserve in place all the 'iwi that have been identified on this property. Young asks Spinney if there is something wrong with that decision. The mission of the HIBC is to provide the forum for people to share their views so the HIBC can make a decision. Young feels the decision to preserve in place in this case is a good one.
Spinney says this is not an attack on an individual. This is an entity we are dealing with. Spinney says it is good the people have a voice, but we have seen a lot of desecration when it comes to our 'iwi.
Spinney would like to have a process service document signed to indicate the HIBC has received it. There is a repository of everything that goes on today; it is filed.
Vince Kanemoto (Kanemoto) asks who it is filed with.
Spinney says the Supreme Tribunal Council.
Kanemoto asks if that is a State court.
Spinney says the State is de facto- this was created by the people.
Kanemoto advises Young not to sign this document.
Spinney says he has a stamp that will indicate the agent refused to sign.
Kanemoto says the minutes from this meeting will reflect that.
Spinney says he is functioning as a process server for Ne'e Papa Aupuni Hawai'i the original people of ka pae 'aina o Hawai'i.
Curtis Tyler (Tyler) says he has read the proposed burial treatment plan and has some comments. Tyler comes before the Council today as an interested citizen and a potential cultural descendant. Tyler has worked directly with Mr. Greenwell as Greenwell has sought certain land use approvals. Tyler was a County Councilman from Kona and was involved with in the approval of the rezoning of this property.
Tyler wants to state for the record that he has known Greenwell for 45 years. Greenwell approached Tyler about doing something on this land in a way that was pono. Tyler suggested Greenwell get in touch with Kepa Maly. Maly completed a two volume report on this land. Tyler is happy to hear the proposal to preserve these 'iwi in place. Tyler feels that in his experience many people do not view the burials in the context of the ahupua'a. They are viewed as segmented entities. Tyler urges the HIBC to continue the precedent of treating the whole cave as the burial site. This has been consistently done for well over a decade.
This plan shows the network of transportation, residential and protocol throughout this entire ahupua'a; this is significant. Tyler would like the HIBC to keep in mind that there are major trails through this property. Tyler understands that the trails are not under the HIBC's jurisdiction. If you look at this not just for transportation by automobiles, but for pedestrian transportation, this is very important from a cultural perspective, especially mauka-makai trails.
Tyler feels there is a difference between preservation and protection. Protection should enable present and future generations to benefit from the action that everyone produces. Tyler notes that the descendants support a 30 foot no build zone from the edge of the established permanent buffer. Tyler agrees with that; it is a very good concept and keeps with this idea of context. Tyler also supports the repatriation of artifacts.
Tyler is concerned about the proximity of Kamanu Street to the burial caves. Tyler considers the burial site to be the caves. The preferred route that has been referred to seems to be from an engineering perspective. Tyler hopes to temper that with a preferred route from a cultural perspective.
Young asks Tyler if he has seen the burial treatment plan.
Tyler says he has.
Young says in particular on page 27 the 30 foot setback from the permanent buffer zone. The buffer zone does not include the entire ana; the building setback almost does. Young wonders if the permanent buffer should include the entire cave and then have the 30 foot building setback start from there?
Tyler says he has testified before the HIBC as an interested party and as a descendant. His recollection is that the where there were burials in a cave, the cave was mapped and that from the edge of the cave projected on the surface, the permanent buffer went form there outward. Tyler believes that the temporary construction buffer is a good idea as well; huge machinery will be involved.
Ruby McDonald (McDonald) requests the HIBC go into closed session because of the information she would just like to share with the Council Members.
Kanemoto asks if this is because the information involves discussion on the description and location of a burial site.
McDonald says yes, and other things as well as her kumu 'ohana which is very private for her. It is site specific.
Young asks if McDonald is asking for a closed session to exclude everyone. Including the other descendants?
McDonald says she is. The information does not apply to the other descendants.
A motion is made to go into a closed session to discuss the description and location related to a burial site. (Nazara/Kuali'i)
Vote: All in Favor
Young says the HIBC is now asking that the room be cleared. Only McDonald will remain to present her information to the Council.
A motion is made to adjourn the closed session (Kahakalau/Helbush)
Vote: All in Favor
Young says the open meeting is back in session, bit the council is going to take a short recess, so we can all move our cars outside of the NELHA compound. We need to move our cars by 4:45p to the parking lot outside of the gate, and when the meeting is pau, we can walk out, if not our cars will be locked inside.
A motion is made to recess the meeting (Helbush/Kahakalau)
Vote: All in Favor
End Tape 2 Side B
Begin Tape 3 Side A
Young calls the meeting back to order.
Young says the reason the Council went into closed session was that information specific to the location and description of a burial was presented.
Lindsey reads a staff memorandum recommending Ruby P. Keana'aina McDonald be recognized as a cultural descendant for the purpose of protecting unidentified ancestral Native Hawaiian remains located on the parcels identified as TMK (3) 7-4-008:013, (3) 7-4-008:030 and (3) 7-4-008:074.
A motion is made to accept the staff recommendation to recognize Ruby P. Keana'aina-McDonald as a cultural descendant. (Saffrey/Elarionoff)
Vote: all in Favor
Harp says the descendants haven't really discussed the buffers for most of Site 18134 because it is outside of the project area- the discussions have mainly been about the entrance area which is within the project area.
A motion is made to defer making a determination on this matter until the next HIBC meeting. (Elarionoff/Helbush)
Vote: All in Favor
Iwalani Arakaki (Arakaki) says she and her two nieces are also descendants to Honokohau. She sent a letter to Lindsey, and it hasn't made it to the Council so she and her family can get on the list.
Lindsey says he will meet with them before next meeting to get everything squared away so they can be recognized.
VII. CASE UPDATES
A. HAWAI'I ISLAND BURIAL COUNCIL'S INVOLVEMENT IN NAGPRA PROCESS RELATIVE TO ITEMS CURRENTLY IN CONTROL OF HAWAI'I VOLCANOES NATIONAL PARK
Information: Update on the HIBC's involvement as a claimant under NAGPRA relative to items taken from a cave in Kawaihae, Kohala known as the "Forbes Cave", and currently in the possession and control of Hawai'i Volcanoes National Park. Report on August 27, 2005 claimants meeting.
Young says he requested this on the agenda because he attended a meeting on August 27 representing the HIBC as a claimant for funerary objects belong cared for by the National Park in Volcano. There are 13 claimants. Lindsey has a letter from the prior HIBC regarding this matter, and some of the background information. Young asks Lindsey to distribute this for the Council's review.
Saffrey asks if other Council members can request to see the items.
Lindsey says they can.
Young says in the past, the Chair or Vice-Chair has represented the whole Council. The reason for the meeting was that under NAGPRA the Park has to meet and consult with the claimants. This was probably the first of a couple of meetings that will occur. The Park was trying to determine if the claimants are in consensus as to the nature of these five objects. The objects are part of the larger collection that was removed from the cave in 1905. The letter from the HIBC dated May 31, 2005 states that the HIBC determined that the items in the Parks possession are associated funerary objects as defined by NAGPRA.
NAGPRA has several definitions that can be applied- there are associated funerary objects, unassociated funerary objects, the 'iwi themselves, or objects of cultural patrimony. The Park is looking for consensus from the claimants on what category these objects fall under. The HIBC supported associated funerary objects, and as such support repatriation.
Other claimants felt these were unassociated funerary objects, and another said these were objects of cultural patrimony; both supported repatriation.
There was no consensus among the claimants as to what the disposition of the objects should be once they are repatriated, but all supported repatriation.
Lindsey says the two letters the Council got today are just the basic information. There is more that the Department will get to the Council, especially those members who came in after may of this year.
Young says there are other objects that are part of the overall collection that was removed from the cave; they have been separated. There were items in control of the Bishop Museum that were returned to the cave. Since August 27th, a Judge's order has directed those who returned these items to the cave to remove them. Young thinks the Council might want to consider this as they move forward with this.
Young feels the Council should think about whether the returned items are under Federal jurisdiction or the HIBC's because they have been returned to the cave- Young does not have the answer.
Alan Murakami (Murakami) introduces himself to the Council. He is with Native Hawaiian Legal Corporation (NHLC).
Duncan Ka'ohu Seto (Seto) introduces himself to the Council. He is a member of Hui Malama I Na Kupuna O Hawai'i Nei.
Murakami says he represents Hui Malama.
Kanemoto asks if the reason the Federal court has assumed jurisdiction in this matter. The case Murakami is involved in and subject to the court order is because the area in which this cave is located is on Federal Land.
Murakami says no, it is on Department of Hawaiian Homes Land, but those lands are covered under NAGPRA as tribal lands.
They have a disagreement with the Federal Court. They feel the Judge is totally wrong. As a result they are up at the Ninth Circuit on an emergency basis. The Judge has ordered Hui Malama to remove or cause the removal of these 83 moepu in 16 days, which ends next Friday (September 23).
They feel this is a violation of Hui Malama's first amendment rights, so it is a constitutional claim they are making to the Ninth Circuit Court. Secondly they feel Judge Ezra does not have jurisdiction over this case- NAGPRA was applied, repatriation was requested and completed. It was over four years ago. No claimant can now come forward timely as Na Lei Ali'i Kawananakoa has and has received what they (NHLC) feel is an illegal recognition by Bishop Museum, who has no power to recognize additional claimants.
Kanemoto asks that the items were originally subject to the NAGPRA process, but that process was completed and therefore the Court has no jurisdiction.
Murakami says that is the disagreement. The Court believes the repatriation was improperly done and has taken jurisdiction, although the argument is that the time for that is long passed. There is no claim under NAGPRA. NAGPRA can only be applied to museums and federal agencies that hold these types of items.
It is against Hui Malama's first amendment rights and NHLC feels it supersedes 6E which is the HIBC's kuleana. There is no federal law in this area once repatriation is over, and in this case, repatriation is over. For the Court to do so in the absence of the other 11 title holders- claimants are called title holders now that repatriation is complete, is wrong. It is basically the Royal Academy along with Kawananakoa, who NHLC has no standing to even sue, fighting it out with Hui Malama as a defendant- that is just two of the owners. The HIBC has a right to be involved. The other title holders need to be involved and that is what NHLC is asking the Court to do.
The HIBC is a co-owner of these moepu and have not been joined in this lawsuit, which Murakami feels is a fundamental violation of due process rights for anybody including this Council.
Kanemoto says Murakami is talking about intervening.
Murakami says the Judges order is very broad. The direction of the order is to take these items from the cultural setting that the Hawaiians decided, and return it to the Bishop Museum who paid for the items in the first place knowing they were stolen. Murakami feels the most objectionable thing is that the HIBC's property rights have been ignored if not violated by this Federal Court. Here we have a Federal Judge ordering this return to the Museum contrary to what Murakami feels NAGPRA ultimately intends, over and without the State agency or entity that Murakami feels ultimately has that kuleana.
Kanemoto asks if hypothetically speaking, the items are returned to the Museum, then the NAGPRA process will continue.
Murakami says not in his mind, but that is what he thinks the Judge feels. If this is allowed to be opened back up after 4 years, then there will always be the potential of people stepping in to reopen the process.
Saffrey says she was at the NAGPRA in Washington DC and saw what went on up there. Eddie Ayau did a chant, Saffey does not speak Hawaiian, but the feeling she got was that Ayau was cursing those against him. La'akea Suganuma then stood up and put back on Ayau what he had said. Because it was so one-sided the panel decided to hold the hearings in Hawai'i, so the people's voices could be heard. The Panel asked Ayau if he knew what the word loan means. He said yes. They asked what that means, that he had no intention of returning the items knowing there were other claimants.
We sit here today wanting to hear the voices of the descendants, the people; the other claimants. Saffrey feels the other 11 claimants did not have a voice because one group decided to put the items back without consulting the others; that is where Saffrey is hearing the wrong doing.
Murakami says he is not here to justify whether or not Hui Malama's actions to that point were right or wrong. That vision of what a loan is was manufactured concept by the Museum. There is no loan under NAGPRA. IN NAGPRA, if a person who has a basis for ownership of an object makes a request to a museum who at the same time has no basis legally to assert title to that object, they cannot refuse. They have to give it over. If that is so, the Museums only duty is to turn that item over-
Saffrey says they did call it a loan.
Murakami says basically the Museum is the receiver of stolen goods, who knew they were stolen, saying they will loan it back and now is harping on the fact that it was a loan and should be returned. Under NAGPRA those items should never be returned, because the Museum has no basis for title- that is very clear.
Saffrey asks about the other claimants.
Murakami says it injects confusion about what NAGPRA is all about. Murakami feels that it is Hui Malama's position that the whole notion of NAGPRA is everyone get together and make a decision. If the 13 claimants agree to take the moepu out of the cave, Hui Malama will respect that.
Saffrey says Hui Malama hasn't tried to communicate to the other claimants.
Murakami says the met for months back in 2001.
Saffrey asks why the other claimants have not been allowed to see the items.
Murakami says back in 2001 there were originally only four claimants. Nobody spoke up until after the moepu were returned. After the press detailed the return, nine other claimants came forward. If they were so interested, why didn't the other nine get involved initially? The whole idea of NAGPRA is the idea of a federal agency or museum returning what belonged to a native people in the first place.
Saffrey asks who says that Hui Malama represents all the Native people.
Murakami says anyone could have come forward.
Seto says you have to remember when the theft occurred in the first place. They say David Forbes discovered the cave when they looted the cave. Hui Malama put the items back and made pono what was wrong. Their concern is for the kupuna who are dead and have no voice.
Murakami reads portions of an affidavit La'akea Suganuma filed yesterday. Basically what is says is that if anyone Hawaiian or not comes forward and finds these moepu or 'iwi, then it was meant to be found and is justified; that is his position. If you read the OHA paper this month he says that. If that is the position that this Council wants to sanction, then Murakami feels a lot of things have to change on how 'iwi and moepu are put back in the ground.
Young asks who the original four claimants were.
Murakami says Hui Malama, the HIBC, OHA and Hawaiian Homes, the landowner. Only Hui Malama is being sued. Each of the four are on record saying the items should be returned.
Young says there was great discussion among the Council at the time.
Murakami believes there is a record of a formal motion.
Young says he has asked Lindsey to research that history. Young recalls the Council always supporting no disturbance and no removal.
Pele Hanoa says in the first place David Forbes should never have gone in that cave and stolen those items. The items at the National Park were given to them by the daughter of David Forbes. Forbes should never have maha'oi in the first place.
Elarionoff says it is wrong to even call the cave "Forbes Cave." He was kaaihue. Elarionoff's family is from that are, Kawaihae Uka, they take care of a similar cave and the same thing could happen. We should not honor Forbes. Call him kaaihue, the thief.
Dela Cruz says that whole area has caves- that whole area should be designated a preserve and that whole area closed off. That place needs to be respected- in the old days canoes passing by would tilt their sails in a sign of respect. Dela Cruz dreamed of this last night; for some reason he knew this was coming. These areas need to be protected- people are going to try and come and rob these places.
Murakami says there are some, like Rubellite Johnson at UH who believe that the Hawaiians in Kawaihae in 1905 would have believed Forbes was led there by the ancestors, and therefore was ok.
Kuali'i asks how that cave in particular being protected now.
Murakami says it is sealed with concrete.
Kuali'i says he has heard that it was opened or broken into and then sealed again.
Murakami says perhaps Kuali'i is speaking of a different cave, maybe Kanupa?
Kanupa is a different cave. When Hui Malama put these items back with the 'iwi, "Forbes Cave" was empty at that point, and for the first time in over 100 years it was restored and sealed. Someone did break into Kanupa after Hui Malama attempted to return those items and 'iwi.
Kuali'i wonders what Murakami wants the HIBC to do.
Murakami says he hopes he is talking to people who feel the own a piece of the moepu.
Kuali'i says he has his own mana'o, and cannot speak for his fellow Council members.
Murakami says they have received statements from Ray Soon, who was the DHHL Director basically affirming that the Commission had said nobody is to go in once these items have been returned. They may have had a question about the loan and what should have happened. They did say that once the items have been returned, don't disturb them.
Murakami has documentation that OHA's vision was that the items would go back into the cave, but hasn't got a specific response on what is happening right now. Murakami assumes that since their position is that the items should go back, that they shouldn't be touched either.
Hui Malama is very clear on their position.
Murakami has statements from the Native Hawaiian Advisory Council, one of the 13 owners who are saying they support preservation.
Pu'uhonua O Waimanalo supports leaving them in place.
Murakami would like an affirmation from this Council that the Council's position has not changed, that the moepu should not be disturbed so they can inform the 9th Circuit of that- if not them, certainly the District Court who NHLC plans to asks for a reconsideration, because the Judge does not understand that what he has ordered is impossible because of the structure of the cave, the extent of the security etc., etc. Even Beyond violating Hui Malama's first amendment rights, it is just physically impossible and will subject anybody to the danger of life and limb to try and do this. This cave is in danger of collapsing if they go in with heavy equipment which will be necessary to disrupt the security measures.
If the HIBC reaffirms their position, that will be very useful because then NHLC can say hey the Suganumas and Johnsons of the world are saying Hawaiians believe something different than what the HIBC who is the primary guardian of 'iwi on moepu on this Island believe.
Murakami thinks the HIBC has the right to join this case as a co-owner of the moepu.
Saffrey says her concern is this concept of the loan- that was the focus of the NAGPRA hearings. Ayau very clearly said he did know what that paper was, and that he had no intention of returning them, and that was asked many times and that is in the Federal Register. Sitting on this Board now, Saffrey wants clarity here if they are being asked to support, because she can't. What laws apple here? Federal? Or State?
Seto says we should not get hung up on the word loan because Bishop Museum regularly loans things out without expecting them back, like on Moloka'I, same thing. They signed off on the loan. Do you think they expect them back? That is how it works.
Saffrey says she sat in on two meetings and listened
Seto says don't get hung up on the loan.
Saffrey says she is. A piece of paper handed to a responsible human being. If Ayau had said he did not know what loan meant then fine, but to deliberately say he did know what he signed, and he had no intention of returning them when he signed it.
Murakami says looking at it from the Museum's viewpoint, they don't own the property. There is nothing to transfer in terms of title. The only thing they know of in the Museum world is this word loan, and in the Museum world loan is used very differently.
Saffrey asks what NAGPRA is about.
Murakami says NAGPRA does not even use loan. NAGPRA basically says the transfer has to happen if you ask for it.
Saffrey says it was under the Museums jurisdiction to have this paper which was a loan to this one organization because there were other claimants.
Murakami says the Museum created that.
Saffrey says that is her position.
Murakami says he can accept that. The Museum introduced this confusion and this unfortunate term that confounds the problem unnecessarily because
End Tape 3 Side A
Begin Side B
the claimants and you can decide what to do with the moepu, and you can deal with that there. The fact that the Museum transferred possession to Hui Malama was the important thing that had to happen under the law, and it was not with the expectation they would get it back under the law, they did not think they would get it back, and can't ask.
Saffrey said they did ask for them back.
Murakami says he should say they can't legally ask for them back.
Saffrey said the other claimants also asked.
Murakami says they may try, but under the legal rights afforded by NAGPRA that time has come and gone. They could have done that back then. The 13 claimants unanimously asked for repatriation. Once that was completed, title was passed to those 13 title holders. Now it is up them. The Museum has nothing to say from then on.
Elarionoff says the more people that go up there, the more possibility of them finding the other caves.
Pele Hanoa says as a Hawaiian she knows her culture, she lives in these Islands, she does not care how the western people think. Loan is not a Hawaiian word.
Murakami says it is not even a NAGPRA word.
Young says when these objects were still in the possession of the Museum, when the HIBC made its claim, the sentiment of the Council was that they should be repatriated and then returned to the cave. When it (repatriation) actually happened, there was a lot of discussion among the Council if these items should be shared with the public because these are unique and special, extraordinary pieces no doubt, that speaks to itself who was in the cave.
The items were returned without the Council knowing, but the sentiment of the Council when we found out was "ok it is done." Young can attest to that because he sat in on many meetings. What Young cannot attest to is if a motion was passed or if any decisions were made on the record. The only decision they made was to be a claimant.
Young does not know how two or three wrongs make a right, and that is what is perplexing to him. One thing he can say is that he does not want a Federal Judge telling the HIBC. The HIBC is here to keep it there. How the items were returned right or wrong cannot be reversed; taking the items out in the first place, we can't reverse the wrongs.
There is a numerous chronology of wrongs here. The HIBC can take a position or no position and stay neutral, but Young feels taking no position is wrong; that is his personal opinion. The AG had to leave to catch his flight, but Young feels the Council can make a motion and vote on it.
The way the items went back caused a lot of debate among the Council and even divisiveness at this level, because the HIBC stands for a principle and it seemed someone undermined that principle, but in the end the items went back to the cave.
Young can focus on the Judges decision. Should the items be removed? Young says no, but it is up to the Council. The Council can make a motion and write a letter or do nothing.
Murakami asks that the Council write a letter, and to ask for intervention if that is what the Council wants to do; something in writing that NHLC can hopefully use from the Council on what the sentiment of this Council is in regard to the disposition of the moepu in the cave and whether or not it is proper to take them out without the permission of the Council- this is a previously identified associated burial remains, and under 6E HRS the HIBC gets to say what happens.
Kuali'i says regardless of how we feel about what was done and who did what, basically the vote would be either for or against the removal of these items.
Young would like to see the Council make a motion to that effect; that as a claimant they were not informed regarding the Judges decision to remove the items from the cave. The HIBC feels we should be in that process. The items are in the cave and it is NHLC's position that it is outside of NAGPRA's jurisdiction. All that does is reaffirm what the HIBC is all about.
Dela Cruz says the decision was made to repatriate.
Young says there is background history the Council needs to have.
Lindsey says he has not found any specific motions from the HIBC on what should happen after repatriation.
Murakami says repatriation happened and is done. The question now is possession and placement of the objects. If the HIBC believes they should go back to their cultural setting, then that is what the Council should vote on.
Young says they never reached that level of decision because the items went to Hui Malama and went back into the cave without any action by the HIBC. Young can say the sentiment was that the items should go back in the cave, but that might not be on the record.
Elarionoff says today those items are there- let's keep them there.
Young says a motion should be made and if passed, staff can draft the letter, and then circulated among the Council members to approve it.
Kuali'i would like to make a motion that those moepu stay in that cave where they are now. A letter should be drafted and sent to Judge Ezra.
Murakami says he cannot tell the Council to send a letter to Judge Ezra as a party to the litigation; they can only communicate with him in the courtroom.
Pele Hanoa says send a letter to him so he knows where the Council stands. This is our 'aina.
Saffrey asks don't we need to make a motion before we write a letter.
Young says he is trying to get the motion in the letter that way all we have to do is draft the motion that has been approved; that way the letter will be drafted and signed.
Saffrey says without the AG here she is uncomfortable.
A motion is made that the moepu that were returned to the "Forbes Cave" in Kawaihae, South Kohala by Hui Malama remain in place undisturbed and not be removed
Helbush says he is concerned about the reference to Hui Malama because if the question of the loan comes up, but the Council should just state our view and not make it look like we are supporting one group or another.
Elarionoff says the point of the motion is that from this day on, those items stay there.
Saffrey says because it is an order by the Judge, Saffrey is concerned and does not support this. Her position is that she has sat in on the NAGPRA meetings and learned a lot- she cannot support this. All the claimants should be given the opportunity to decide.
Helbush believes those items should have stayed there and not touched- forget all the rest. If the Judge orders it, fine that is the law. All the Council is doing is stating our position.
Kuali'i amends his motion to the following
A motion is made that the moepu that were returned to the "Forbes Cave" in Kawaihae, South Kohala remain in place undisturbed and not be removed
Role Call Vote:
Ronald Dela Cruz- Aye. He wishes those items stay there, but knows some of those items are not directly burial items Those items that are directly burial items should be returned, but the ones that are not directly related to the burials and were placed there after the kapu time were put there because the keeper of that cave wanted those items protected in there. The question is whether they belong there or not, however they are there now.
Leningrad Elarionoff- Aye.
Pele Hanoa- Aye.
Roy Helbush- Aye.
Kaleo Kuali'i- Aye.
Cynthia Nazara- Aye.
Dutchie Saffrey- No.
Charles Young- Aye.
7 ayes and one Nay the motion carries.
Young says the issue is not over; there are still items in the National Park that are part of the overall collection of items removed from the cave. This is one step. The next time there is a claimant meeting, the Council members should attend. There is agreement on repatriation, but the final disposition of the items has not been decided.
Dela Cruz says the cave is sealed.
Young says that is the discussion that is yet to come.
Saffrey asks how the items could be put back if the cave is sealed.
Young does not know. We will have to discuss that.
Lindsey asks how the Council wants the motion that was just passed relayed to any appropriate parties.
Young says a letter should be drafted and reviewed by the AG.
Elarionoff says why should it be reviewed? This is our decision.
Young says he will coordinate with Lindsey tomorrow on how to communicate this motion.
Hanalei Fergerstrom (Fergerstrom) says he came here today from Kalapana only to offer support if it is deemed necessary on the motion that the Council just made to keep the 'iwi and moepu in place. Fergerstrom understands that there may be disagreements, but does not want to see the Federal Government having the last say; these are cultural matters. It is good to see that the HIBC's mindset is that the cave will not be disturbed again; that is what we are trying to do. Fergerstrom is here to support the HIBC's motion that was just made.
B. TMK (3) 8-9-02 AND 8-9-03 OKOE AHUPUA'A, SOUTH KONA DISTRICT, HAWAI'I ISLAND
Information: Update on SHPD staff's site visit to Okoe and on-going Burial Registrations
Lindsey says they did get a chance to meet with Darrel DeSilva and his mom down in Okoe, and can honestly say he is honored and privileged to have been able to go there with them. Lindsey has prepared a report on that site visit, but because of the information Darrel shared, it has been sent to him for his approval. We are moving forward with the Burial registration process for the sites DeSilva showed staff there. The sites are on State land, so there is imminent danger from development, but DeSilva does have concerns about people who go makai to the coastline and may not know the significance of the coastline. There is no doubt that there are major features there that have survived because of their isolation.
A motion is made to adjourn the meeting (Hanoa/Kuali'i)
Vote: All in Favor
The meeting is adjourned at 6:26 pm
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